FAG is a high end bearing.
There is a specific rotational torque value you should be shooting for. Paradise Wheels should have given you that when you bought the kit.
Printable View
FAG is a high end bearing.
There is a specific rotational torque value you should be shooting for. Paradise Wheels should have given you that when you bought the kit.
High 20s low 30s in the inch pound range. I did all of my testing with the roll pin out so I could easily pop the race out and add or subtract shims and when I finally got it right and installed the pin it was too tight till I popped the race and seated it, the pin was keeping the race from moving on that side and it cocked, after that it was back to the as tested reading on my dial type torque wrench
Thanks guys. I don't have one of those tools, but I think I know who does. So if it's too tight, which/where shims do I add to loosen it up? It's the ones under the big bellview washer, I can't remember how it looks...
Remove the ones under the bellview washer to loosen
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceetwarrior
hey, really likeing where this thread is goin, doin a great job with the pics and descriptions.
ill be watching for updates
ive had my 89 sitting on a shelf for close to 3 years now. started making a weird almost buzzing noise, tor it appart and found the impeller shaft had a small nick in it. everything else looked perfect.
figured on sending it out for a rebuild, but after reading through this thread i think i may try it myself
also the drive balls look un harmed, took the unit off immeditely after i heard any noise, anyone think it would be a bad idea just to replace the impeller shaft and save myself 300 bucks?
Welcome to SCH.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charged87GTA
Replacing the worn impeller shaft yourself is certainly not a bad idea at all. I can't recall the price of the impeller shaft itself (I think it's about $100-$140, but don't quote me), but doing the job yourself is easy. There's plenty of reference material on the site here to sift through.
I would, however suggest that you also consider buying new drive balls and possibly new races as well. Even though you removed the blower once you started hearing a strange noise (very smart on your part, BTW) I would imagine the drive balls sustained some - although probably miniscule - damage, so it would be wise to change them. And for the cost, it's not worth the risk to continue to run the old balls.
I haven't updated this thread in a while, but I will very soon. I'm just about to finish polishing all the main blower parts; the oil case and main housing are polished to a mirror finish, but I'm still working on the scroll cover... it's intricate so it's taking a while. But I'll post photos of the polished bits soon.
Then, I'll post photos as I go through the reassembly process. Hopefully I'll have my SN89 reassembled within the next couple of weeks... if not sooner.
yea a quick search on ebay and the impeller shaft is 185, and a refresh kit is 150, but comes with the balls, front and rear seal, the two bearings and the o ring.
probably not a bad idea to spend the extra 150. just gotta be careful putting it back together so id dosent explode.
i think it may of been over spun to begin with, do you know the formula to measure the pullys and find out?
Call Paradise Wheels. Their prices for the impeller shaft will be lower than $185.
And while the refresh kit comes with new balls and seals, replacing the seals isn't easy. If all you need to do is replace the impeller shaft and the balls, it's a relatively quick job. Things start getting a bit more involved when you're talking about replacing seals, and in your case it's probably not needed.
There is an excel spreadsheet on the site here that allows you to calculate the pulley size(s) for a desired supercharger RPM. The internal step-up ratio of these blowers is 4.44:1 and they should be spun between 39,000 - 41,000 RPM max. Any higher and the wear becomes excessive; there's not much more boost to be had either.
Here's the link to the spreadsheet: http://www.superchargerhelp.com/showthread.php?t=4907
Hope that helps.
was actually just trying to find paradise wheels site for compairison with no luck. would you happen to have a link to the site or there number?
also ill pull it back appart today and see how everything looks on the inside of the blower
Unfortunately Paradise Wheels doesn't have a website. But here's their contact information:
Craig Conley
Paradise Wheels
1-760-740-0954
conleyr107@sbcglobal.net
They're in California, so be mindful of the time difference.
When the impellershaft is worn then the balls are out of round to, it just is not visable by the eye.
Better replace the balls to when you do the impellershaft.
A little cheaper, the balls can be bought here to: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT :cool:
It is the corect size and I used a lot of them :angel:
yea i had talked to them at paradise before, thanks for the info
and yea thats a lot cheaper for the balls. twice as many for less than half as much as they are from cundn.
no issues with them in your blowers?
Craig at Paradise says the balls are supposed to be grade 5 or better. He sells grade 0. The balls are also supposed to be "sacrificial". Those on E-bay or McMaster are way too hard.
If anybody has had success using the grade 25 and harder balls like in the link mentioned above speak up because it contradicts Craig's advice.
I'm not familiar with the American standards. As I have read ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_(bearing) ) grade numbers are related to the tolerances and surface and not to the hardness.
OK I will slow down.
Grade 25 according to Craig is too loose a bearing tolerance. They must be grade 5 or better.
Also, the balls are supposed to be the sacrificial element. Having a Rockwell 'C' of 60+ is way too hard if they are supposed to be the wearing element. This is info. I am passing on from Craig at Paradise.
Joo is absolutely correct. The ball grading refers to tolerance, sphericity, and surface finish. The lower the number the more accurately produced and smoother the ball is. So a Grade 0 ball is more accurate to it's stated dimension, and has a smoother surface finish than a Grade 5 ball, which is more accurate and smoother than a Grade 25 ball, and so on.
The grade has nothing to do with hardness. That is a separate measure.
And Craig is correct: the balls are sacrificial. It may sound very contradictory to conventional ideals, but they are supposed to wear.
The best way to keep an SN running for a long time is to run an oil cooler and to change the fluid on a regular (and consistent) basis.
Of course he is correct, I never said that grade 25 had ANYTHING to do with hardness. The balls listed on the E-bay link are also hardened in addition to being grade 25...........that is what I was talking about when referring to hardness. I am sorry if my wording confused anybody.
The E-bay balls are too loose a tolerance. The E-bay balls are also too hard.
Sorry JPJP, didn't mean to imply that you were wrong. Just merely trying to help Charged87GTA get a clearer understanding with respect to the drive balls' grading system vs. hardness. To be honest, I didn't even click the eBay link until now. And you're right - those eBay balls are both too low a grade and too hard.
I think it might also be important to mention, there's nothing that says harder balls can't be used... it just means they will wear the impeller shaft, ball carrier, and races quicker. And I doubt the lower price of those eBay balls will offset the cost of more frequent rebuilds.
Mmmh, never thought of it that way.
Aldough I used them a lot and everytime I opened up the case I replace the balls.
I have not yet have to replace the impellershaft more often dough.
Glad to hear of no problems with those balls pavement pounde and the impeller shaft holding up to them.
Thanks Mike, I was getting frustrated that I confused so many people.
it's easy to explain. Any difference within the various ball's production tolerances will excert a different pressure on the races. If some of the balls are smaller in diameter than others then these balls produce less pressure on the races and will turn with slippage (high temperature leads to metal fatigue). If any ball is larger then others it produces higher pressure and eventually more wear. My estimation about that.
yea i get what everyone is sayin, and its probably just best to go with the OE paxton balls. might just place my order today for the impeller shaft and drive balls.
just to clarify;
when i put this all together the two things that are important are the case bolts torqued to 120-160in/lbs(can be adjusted to get the right amount of torque on the impeller?)
and the torque to turn the blower 40-45in/lbs?
do i measure this at the impeller end or the pulley end?
measure this with it full of ford type f?
Anything else to look for?
I think getting the OE drive balls from Paradise Wheels is the smart move, especially considering this is your first attempt at servicing your SN. I'm in the same boat as yourself, and I went with a full rebuild kit from Paradise for this same reason. Maybe later, when I'm more comfortable "experimenting", then I may try different sources for parts.
I don't know if you've seen this schematic yet, but it's been posted around the forum here several times:
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f2...0Help/expl.jpg
It states the torque values for several of the fasteners. You'll find it helpful when reassembling your SN89.
The case bolts (120-160in/lbs) are part of the means of adjustment. There are shims within the blower located between the main housing and the Belleville spring washer (item 19 in the schematic). They are what also dictate ball pressure. However in your case, since all your looking to do is replace the balls and impeller shaft, you may not need to worry about those. I'd advise tightening the case bolts to 120in/lbs first, then checking the turning torque of the blower, and retightening further if needed.
As for turning torque, I believe it's done at the impeller end... but I could very well be wrong. Hopefully someone chimes in and verifies this.
And no, I don't think you measure the turning torque with any fluid in the blower. It should be dry.
Hope that helps.
I lubed the balls and did all of the measuring before I pinned the upper race so it would float and show the actual pressure on the assembly, and not any misalignment in the race that would work itself out when run. measure torque at pulley
Did you do this with the seals installed or not installed? I've seen torque numbers for both with seals and without; I think the preferred method of initial assembly is without seals. But on SN92 and newer blowers, the separate oil pump/bearing assembly makes it much easier to do this; the older SN's require removal of the main shaft assembly (with all it's bearings and oil pump) in order to install the front seal once all the required shimming is determined. I can see that being a major PITA!Quote:
Originally Posted by winfred
I stand corrected. And now that I think about it, it makes a lot more sense than measuring at the impeller side.Quote:
Originally Posted by winfred
the turning torque is done at the pulley to measure the torque to drive the pulley, indeed 40-45 inch/pound.
I left the seals installed that i put in new 2k miles before it ate the used impeller shaft I installed when I built it the first time, got the parts from cund the first time and paridice the 2nd and the paridice stuff was the same price but better and more of it, everything including a new shaft instead of a used one, pretty much everything but the bellview washer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael
Alright thanks alot
ordered an impeller shaft and the drive balls today, came to 205$ 150 for the impeller, 50 for the balls and 5 to ship em
hopefully they will be in early next week
$205 to get your SN back up and running doesn't sound like a bad deal to me.
Make sure to keep us posted once you crack open your SN89 and tackle the ball and impeller shaft replacement.
lol well see if everything works out
ill keep yas posetd
thanks again for the help
also i got a quick off topic question
anyone ever run an intercooler with one of these blowers, would it even help much or maybe cause lag or something
Running a air to water on mine, not really going to incurr lag on a blower like you can on a turbo, matter of fact I had to add a second BOV to keep flutter down, one wasn't enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charged87GTA
This is a question that gets asked often in the SN section.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charged87GTA
While running an intercooler (air-to-air or air-to-water) is certainly an option as winfrid is doing on his car, the general consensus with respect to relatively low-boost, low-flow systems (ie. 5psi-9psi; 650cfm-850cfm) an intercooler will prove to be more of a hinderance than a benefit. The added piping and volume causes the overall pressure to drop; the low airflow can't compensate for the additional volume.
For low-pressure, low-flow systems, a water/methanol injection system is considered a better option. It provides extremely effective charge cooling with no additional piping/volume or restriction to the airflow. Almost all systems today are electronic, and once they are setup, there's little continuous maintenance. The only drawback is the constant monitoring of the onboard water/methanol tank, to ensure there's an adequate supply.
Another way of helping to keep the charge air cool is to run a separate oil cooler, if you don't already have one. Paradise Wheels sells an oil cooler kit, although I know several people here have made their own versions using a B&M trans cooler. The most complex part is the oil feed/return tubing that goes where the dipstick is on a standard SN.
I had my system together and on the street a few days before I had the water part of the charge cooler system working and the intake temps were real high, at times it would heatsoak almost 100* over ambient, now they run 6-10* over ambient, which is good for a few hp as not nearly as much timing needs to be pulled
Only 6-10deg over ambient is impressive. If it's working for you, then by all means don't change a thing. My suggestion to use a water/meth system was merely mirroring what I've read on this (and other) forums.
Are you running an oil cooler as well? Did you see more boost before you had the intercooler installed?
Thought I'd try and bring this discussion back on track by posting a few photos of my SN89 rebuild progress.
The last while I've been trying to polish the major components back to their original mirror-like finish. A friend of mine has a full-sized buffer at his shop and he's gracious let me use it when he doesn't need it (which, luckily, is often).
Below are some photos of the front oil case and main scroll housing. I'm still working on the rear scroll cover. Because of it's intricate design, it's taking a little longer than I thought... but I'll get it close to looking like these.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f2...d/P1080101.jpg
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f2...d/P1080102.jpg
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f2...d/P1080103.jpg
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f2...d/P1080105.jpg
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f2...d/P1080107.jpg
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f2...d/P1080108.jpg
Once the rear scroll cover is polished up (along with the discharge tubing), I am going to begin the reassembly process. Stay tuned.
I am running 2 lube coolers in series as I don't have the room for one big one. Never ran it without the cooler in place, just without water in it, best example I have of how well it works is I did a run from 55-145mph and intake temps only came up 22 degrees. Air to water units are generally super low restriction, usually something like .05# loss at 15-20# compared to .5# for a air to air, I am not running enough through it to really expect much loss, 8-8.5# boost with upgraded impeller on sn92 spinning around 41k (can't remember exactly as it's been a while 5.5 crank 3.5 blower 6500 redline) with very little dust on the housing so my belt routing design mush be working
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael
thing looks great polished up
went over mine with a wire wheel, thats all im doin cuz everything else under the hood is mostly bare alum
well got everything back together yeasterday and the blower sounds pretty good, keeps blowing the pipes/hoses after the blower off lol. sounds like an airplane when its not hooked up to the motor
time to invest in some heavy duty hose clamps
the car was hard to keep in a straight line before, gonna be real tough now as long as i can keep it in boost
also if anyone knows the formula to see if your overspinning the blower i would apprecieate it if you could share it, been searching for it and cant seem to find it.
my sbc revs pretty high, i have a 7000 rpm chip in it and it gets there real quick with the blower on. just trying to make sure its safe, thanks