Studdering with FMU.....?

I just finally got my 42# lightning injectors and matching Pro M in my car and untill I can get my wideband on and tune it, I am using my ATI FMU (adjustable bleed type) My car seems to have a really bad studder between 3500-4400rpm (just building decent boost) and then it seems to clear up and pull to redline. I have been told that it is the FMU causing this I have adjusted it both ways and the problem still exists, any of you guys have this problem? Any idea what else it could be? It will even hiccup through the intake every now and then...

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Originally posted by SnakeIs
I just finally got my 42# lightning injectors and matching Pro M in my car and untill I can get my wideband on and tune it, I am using my ATI FMU (adjustable bleed type) My car seems to have a really bad studder between 3500-4400rpm (just building decent boost) and then it seems to clear up and pull to redline. I have been told that it is the FMU causing this I have adjusted it both ways and the problem still exists, any of you guys have this problem? Any idea what else it could be? It will even hiccup through the intake every now and then...

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What kind of fuel pressure are you seeing under WOT, and at idle? Obviously your gonna need less fp w/ the 42's than w/ your previous injectors.
Whats your plugs gapped at? The added fuel might be drowning out your spark.

just a few things to look at
DAN

Dan, I have dropped the FP to around 38 at idle and I have turned out the adjustment on the FMU to where it only sees about 50-55psi under boost, I didn't think that seemed like too much. I have the plugs gapped at .035 and just put the full MSD 6AL on.

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Originally posted by SnakeIs
Dan, I have dropped the FP to around 38 at idle and I have turned out the adjustment on the FMU to where it only sees about 50-55psi under boost, I didn't think that seemed like too much. I have the plugs gapped at .035 and just put the full MSD 6AL on.

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Try removing the FMU to see what happens. I had an FMU on my car w/ 50's :rolleyes: via Laroccas suggestion. If I were you I would remove the FMU, run the base fp at 42-44 and see if that helps.

DAN

I'm just scared of going lean without it, I do have the eec tuner but since the injector install I have went back to all stock fuel tables. You don't think I'll be lean without it? Are the 42's enough to feed it?

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Originally posted by SnakeIs
I'm just scared of going lean without it, I do have the eec tuner but since the injector install I have went back to all stock fuel tables. You don't think I'll be lean without it? Are the 42's enough to feed it?

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Pull out some timing near peak torque as I am sure you are. Friend of mine is running 42's w/o fmu making 485rwhp and 450ft/lbs. Car seemed to have plenty of fuel, and he was only running a 190 intank and T-rex external.
He was tuned by jimmy c at laroccas
DAN

I would suggest pulling your FMU out... with #42 injectors, you more than likely don't need it. I would set your base FP (at idle with vac. line off) at 42-44 (just as Dan said), drop your timing to 10 degrees base, and re-gap your plugs to .030... .035 is probibly a bit much even with a MSD ignition... there are people on here that will tell you .025 and the car has never run better since they re-gapped it there. You really shouldn't need a FMU with those injectors unless you are running a rather radical intake, cam, and head (especially) combo. Also, pull some timing out up top as Dan suggested as well. (is there an echo in this room? :p )

What exactly is your setup, what blower are you running, how much boost, do you have any dyno figures at all... N/A or boosted? This will help.

Well, I was going to post this in a seperate thread altogether, but I'll go ahead and get it out here. I put it on the dyno (brand new 248C at a friends shop) for the first time this Saturday, he was doing a free dyno day to promote the shop and we got just 3 power pulls and no tuning. I was VERY depressed! But I am hoping its all in the tune! The best I could do was 255rwhp with a 10.0 AFR and only 20 degrees timing up top. This was with 9-10psi of boost.... Please tell me that I can tune this thing to my goal of 425-450!! I had the FMU on with the 42's but backed the bleeder screw all the way off and it still showed a 10.2afr at WOT. It was so rich that it began breaking up on the dyno and we only pulled it to 5800-6000rpm. I am ripping the FMU off this week and putting the wideband in and hope to get it sorted out. I am going to shoot for a 11.5 at WOT and maybe raise the timing up since the poor little P600 will only make 10psi on my motor. I was really trying to make this thing safe since I blew my motor last year, but I guess I got it wayyyyy to safe!

WA2FAST- I have a DSS 306 (less than 5000miles) out of the box GT40X heads, F303 cam, 1.6RR's, Upper and lower GT40 tubular, 42# injectors and matching ProM 75mm MAF, 70mm TB, 255lph intank and ATI inline, Full MSD, MAC shorties, X pipe, etc. P600 with 2 core and 14psi pulley seeing 10psi max. and probably a few other things that I missed.

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Originally posted by SnakeIs
Well, I was going to post this in a seperate thread altogether, but I'll go ahead and get it out here. I put it on the dyno (brand new 248C at a friends shop) for the first time this Saturday, he was doing a free dyno day to promote the shop and we got just 3 power pulls and no tuning. I was VERY depressed! But I am hoping its all in the tune! The best I could do was 255rwhp with a 10.0 AFR and only 20 degrees timing up top. This was with 9-10psi of boost.... Please tell me that I can tune this thing to my goal of 425-450!! I had the FMU on with the 42's but backed the bleeder screw all the way off and it still showed a 10.2afr at WOT. It was so rich that it began breaking up on the dyno and we only pulled it to 5800-6000rpm. I am ripping the FMU off this week and putting the wideband in and hope to get it sorted out. I am going to shoot for a 11.5 at WOT and maybe raise the timing up since the poor little P600 will only make 10psi on my motor. I was really trying to make this thing safe since I blew my motor last year, but I guess I got it wayyyyy to safe!

WA2FAST- I have a DSS 306 (less than 5000miles) out of the box GT40X heads, F303 cam, 1.6RR's, Upper and lower GT40 tubular, 42# injectors and matching ProM 75mm MAF, 70mm TB, 255lph intank and ATI inline, Full MSD, MAC shorties, X pipe, etc. P600 with 2 core and 14psi pulley seeing 10psi max. and probably a few other things that I missed.

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255rwhp? Are you sure you dont mean 355? Even w/ the car that fat you should be making some decent power w/ 9-10#'s of boost showing. How does the car feel at WOT? does it feel as strong as it did prior to the injector change? Didn't you say the car went 117mph in the 1/4 a while ago?
Something definetly isn't right and to be honest I would not think that just tuning is going to give you 200rwhp, again are you positive that you are running on all cylinders? I am not being sarcastic, just looking at obvious things first. Please post more in regards to what is going on. I honestly think that the 42s are fine for your setup.
I had a very similar setup w/ the same amount of boost that you are making and made 464 to the wheels w/ an 11:1 a/f and 23 degrees of timing.

good luck and keep posted.

I agree with Dan... entirely... doesn't sound right at all. I was at 255rwhp with a mild N/A setup a while back... I was actually over that power.

Well, its a brand new DynoJet 248C and that was the biggest numbers it gave me. I'm thinking it was actually way richer then 10.0 though because the wideband only registers to a minimum of 10.0:1 afr and we think it may have been off scale becuase it actually spit black crap on the wall behind the tails when we pulled it and, it was breaking up rather badly at about 3800 and up.

It didn't just start this with the new injectors, it began this as soon as I did the A9L EEC swap....and I can't seem to tune it out. It actually ran good with the old injectors and the stock 95GT EEC.... I'm thinking something could be wrong with the eec swap but I have checked and double checked for any codes and get nothing at all and the car runs smooth and cruises very well. I am going to try and do a compression test soon just to make sure everything is kosher. But now that you guys have mentioned it, this all started with the new EEC. Any ideas what I could look for here guys? This is driving me nuts!

Dan-you heard the car just a few weeks ago at MD, did it sound fine to you?

If it was that off and missing... why did you continue the pull? Especially if your numbers were that low for what you have... you should be making more than that N/A! Are you sure that the pin's are all moved over correctly for the A9L? I have done that conversion before... if you don't get it exactly right, then you are in trouble... the car is going to run like crap. Go to Pro-M's website... I'm not sure if they still have the conversion instructions there (you only have to move a few pins in the harness if I remember correctly) but those are the directions that I followed and it worked just fine. Make sure that the pins you moved over are not just floating around in the harness and actually locked into place... the red-plastic insert HAS to go back in as well otherwise you run into pins pushing out and not making good contact... sometimes depending on which pin is not right or making good contact, you won't get a code... so I would double check the installation. If your problems started then, I am willing to lay money down that your problem lies there somewhere.

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Originally posted by SnakeIs
Well, its a brand new DynoJet 248C and that was the biggest numbers it gave me. I'm thinking it was actually way richer then 10.0 though because the wideband only registers to a minimum of 10.0:1 afr and we think it may have been off scale becuase it actually spit black crap on the wall behind the tails when we pulled it and, it was breaking up rather badly at about 3800 and up.

It didn't just start this with the new injectors, it began this as soon as I did the A9L EEC swap....and I can't seem to tune it out. It actually ran good with the old injectors and the stock 95GT EEC.... I'm thinking something could be wrong with the eec swap but I have checked and double checked for any codes and get nothing at all and the car runs smooth and cruises very well. I am going to try and do a compression test soon just to make sure everything is kosher. But now that you guys have mentioned it, this all started with the new EEC. Any ideas what I could look for here guys? This is driving me nuts!

Dan-you heard the car just a few weeks ago at MD, did it sound fine to you?

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Your car sounded/seemed fine to me a few weeks ago, however something obviously isn't right. Its possible what WA2FAST is saying about the A9L could be an underlying issue.
I am not sure when I will get the chance to get the car retuned, however I would like to say "mid summer." You are welcome to come to Laroccas with me to have him look over your tune, and throw it back on the dyno. I am sure he could pull quite a bit from your car.
Where did you made the 255rwhp? Was it around 3800rpm?

Dan

WA2FAST- that is what scares me, I thought if something was wrong though, that I would get driveability problems or the CE light would have to come on. I had a hell of a time doing that conversion and couldn't for the life of me get that damn red plastic thing back on the harness. But the car fired right up and settled to a nice idle so I figured all was well. I still have the instructions from ProM and there is about 13 pins that you have to change and few wires to add (BAP, Fan control) The car drives great and seems to run smooth so I can't imagine somethings wrong with the conversion.

Dan- I'd love to ride to LaRoccas sometime. It just scares me to drive my car all the way up there and have something go wrong. isn't it like 4-5 hours from here (Winchester, Hagerstown)

I didn't even keep the graph so I'm not sure where it made the power really, I didn't want anyone seeing that graph! I have a few guys on one of my tuning boards telling me that the car may have been so rich that the WB wasn't reading it accurately(most only read down to a 10.0:1) and that all the fuel was blowing the spark out causing the misfire, hence the really low numbers. I am going to lean it out and start adding timing and get back on that dyno as soon as time permits. I can tell you that I took the FMU off and added about 3 degrees of timing from 3k-up and it really made the car feel better on the street, so maybe I was just killing it with my *safe* tune....

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Originally posted by SnakeIs
WA2FAST- that is what scares me, I thought if something was wrong though, that I would get driveability problems or the CE light would have to come on. I had a hell of a time doing that conversion and couldn't for the life of me get that damn red plastic thing back on the harness. But the car fired right up and settled to a nice idle so I figured all was well. I still have the instructions from ProM and there is about 13 pins that you have to change and few wires to add (BAP, Fan control) The car drives great and seems to run smooth so I can't imagine somethings wrong with the conversion.

Dan- I'd love to ride to LaRoccas sometime. It just scares me to drive my car all the way up there and have something go wrong. isn't it like 4-5 hours from here (Winchester, Hagerstown)

I didn't even keep the graph so I'm not sure where it made the power really, I didn't want anyone seeing that graph! I have a few guys on one of my tuning boards telling me that the car may have been so rich that the WB wasn't reading it accurately(most only read down to a 10.0:1) and that all the fuel was blowing the spark out causing the misfire, hence the really low numbers. I am going to lean it out and start adding timing and get back on that dyno as soon as time permits. I can tell you that I took the FMU off and added about 3 degrees of timing from 3k-up and it really made the car feel better on the street, so maybe I was just killing it with my *safe* tune....

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Last time it took me about 4 hours to get there through p.a. I honestly didnt mind the drive, and actually drove the mutang up there.
I will probably do the same thing again, drive it up and drive it back. If you do a thorough inspection of the car and make sure there there is nothing wrong w/ the head gaskets, etc then you shouldn't have a problem on the dyno.
Its hard to say what went on w/ your a/f ratios and your power output. Since you said your car went 117mph in the 1/4, then you are definetly making more than 255rwhp.

Dan

Dan- it went 12.23@115 last season on the stock shortblock right before it blew..... This year I have that DSS in there and still the same cam, heads etc..... I also had the stock EEC in there last year and smaller injectors with the FMU.

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Originally posted by SnakeIs
WA2FAST- that is what scares me, I thought if something was wrong though, that I would get driveability problems or the CE light would have to come on. I had a hell of a time doing that conversion and couldn't for the life of me get that damn red plastic thing back on the harness. But the car fired right up and settled to a nice idle so I figured all was well. I still have the instructions from ProM and there is about 13 pins that you have to change and few wires to add (BAP, Fan control) The car drives great and seems to run smooth so I can't imagine somethings wrong with the conversion.

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Okay... well first of all, you NEED to put that red piece back into the harness because that is what locks the pins in place... without it the wires are more than likely making a bad connection or not making one at all (or possibly an intermittent connection... worst case scenario). In either case, you NEED that back in the harness... it shouldn't be hard at all to put back in... that's the other part that scares me... I have done a few of these conversions (a number of MAF conversions as well as 2 of the ones that you did) and never had any trouble with it. Wires are tight, space is tight yes, that is a total pain, but the red "H" should go right back into place with no problems if it was done right. It seems to me like you might have a pin that isn't seated correctly or something. You definitely need to go back and start there first.

If you are hearing (and even feeling through the accelerator pedal) popping (backfiring) through the intake, your car is running WAY too rich... that's what happens when either your car has an abundance of extra fuel or your timing is way off.

I will try and get that "H" back in soon, I was just worried that I would mess something up by "wiggling" and forcing it in. It seemed as if the wires were kinda tight after doing the conversion because of moving all the pins around.

I don't really have any popping or backfiring at all and the car is pretty smooth, but it still has this hesitation at about 3500rpm up to 4500 or so and then it smoothes out and pulls good to redline. The bottom end of the car feels strong and it blows the tires off rather easily down low it even idles great...thats why I don't think its the EEC. It just seems to "break up" in midrange and the dyno graph even showed it because it was a very rough curve.

In either case, you need to get that plastic piece back in there. I know that the wires are tight, trust me. The first 94/95 A9L conversion that I did, once it was all done, I actually took the wires back out one by one and un-tangled them from the rest because of how tight it was. You might find doing this (although it is a pain) might be advantageous... troubleshooting bad wires down the line is a MAJOR PITA... I can vouch for that! The red piece is what 'locks' the pins in place in the harness... I know that they clip into place, but after pulling them out and moving them around, they tend to either not clip well or not at all and that is when you start to run into trouble if you don't put that red piece back in... that is my advise to you.

As far as your car is concerned... it is quite obvious that it is running too rich... possibly more rich than any car I have ever seen to be down almost 200rwhp ;) but once you iron it all out and get it back under control, I think you will find some really nice power there with your setup... especially with how the A9L will react to the modifications compared to your stock computer. Please keep us updated as to what you are able to squeeze out of it and any status updates.

I guess I'll have to take the eec back out and see what I can do....I really don't want to chasing harness problems down the road!

I am going to start by putting my wideband in and then using my tuner to enter the correct Pro M curves for the meter I am using. I played with it last night but the curve seems entirely too rich down low. I am going stay with this though as all the guys on my tuner board say it is the most accurate way to tune. I just have to lean out the curve until I get what the car wants. I don't think I have hurt the motor because it would pull pretty decent up top with the pro m curve in there, so thats a relief. I guess I'll spend the next days/weeks getting this thing right and I'll keep you guys updated. Thanks for the help and suggestions guys!

Just a suggestion that you probably don't want to do. However if you cannot get this car straightened out, why not go back to how it was before it started running like this? As in, put the stock EEC back in the car, just to see how it runs. I know its alot of work, however it might help narrow down your issues. Did you get that A9L seated together well?
Since your car went 115mph last year, that is probably evident of at least 375-400rwhp. Does your car feel slower now w/ the new computer?
Just trying to help you figure out whats going on. In all honesty, I do not know why you have to compensate so much to get the car "unrich" or to run decent. In my opinion the car should be on the rich side, but not what its doing, which could also be due to the calibration of the MAF. ( I think I remember you saying you have a calibrated pro-m75 bullet for blow through right? )
As an example, when I first installed the D1SC on my car w/ the stock EEC, I installed MSD 50# injectors, 255 intank, ATI external, kirban 1:1 regulator, pro-m75, plugs gapped at .34, base FP set at 44 with vaccum on, and base timning at 10 degrees. The car actually ran half decent, even with an FMU and the 50's. Granted when the rpms got high, the car would hit a wall due to spark blow out and too much FP. However, when I removed the FMU the car ran stronger and honestly didn't have any issues with driveability, or the car cutting out on me..
hope we are helping at least a little :rolleyes:

Dan

Dan, yes you guys are helping out tremendously! I have actually thought about putting the stock eec back in too, but its such a PITA! I was like 2 days laying on my back on the pass floor board installing that thing, and now everyone seems to like the 94-95 eecs just as much! I am going to keep my head high and try and tune this thing with the A9L but I can tell you I'm getting frustrated as hell... I have had great luck with my car up until this and I'm determined to not let it get me now! Thanks again for the help Dan and Don.

If you want to test it without the FMU, just remove the vacumn source and plug it. Without a vacumn/boost source, it won't do anything.

Yep, he is right... just dissconnect the vacume line and plug it. If the FMU doesn't see boost, it will never effect anything.

I've already got the FMU off of there and I've been road testing it. It is better but it still feels like it hits a wall at about 4000rpm and just doesnt pull up top like it should. I am in the process of putting the wideband in and I'm going to lean it up until it pulls up top. If this damn weather would just give me a break so I can get under the car.....

What kind of meter is in the car... you say Pro-M, but which model is it?

It is the bullet style meter with a 42# calibration Non-supercharged because I was told they make it really rich. It is a blow-thru type also for the ProCharger.

Before you go leaning it out, try a .025 plug gap, it sounds like spark blowout to me.

I'm at .034 now with fairly fresh Motorcraft plugs, not to mention the full MSD ignition (6AL, Coil, Plugs, Wires etc) Do you really think it could be spark?

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Originally posted by SnakeIs
I'm at .034 now with fairly fresh Motorcraft plugs, not to mention the full MSD ignition (6AL, Coil, Plugs, Wires etc) Do you really think it could be spark?

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mine was and I have a full ignition upgrade too.

Mine are gapped at .28, I cant go about .30 with new injectors you are pushing more fuel, maybe drowning out the spark.
did you get that 'puter tightened down?

Dan

Really......Hmmmmm now that poses a whole new scenario for me! Hopefully its something that simple :) I'll drop the plug gaps tonight and see what I get.

I haven't messed with the puter yet, as I don't really wanna "fix it if it aint broken"..... I will eventually get that done though so I don't have any problems down the road.. I'll keep you guys updated!

Dan- are you hitting MD's street night on the 19th of this month? If mine is tuned I should be there.

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Originally posted by SnakeIs
It is the bullet style meter with a 42# calibration Non-supercharged because I was told they make it really rich. It is a blow-thru type also for the ProCharger.

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Is it a non-supercharged version, or is it?... I am confused... you also said in the same statement that it is a blow-through type... if it is, then it IS a supercharger meter. Either way, I get the picture, just wanted to see if maybe you could help me out with that one:confused:

I would like to see you get your gap down under .030 (between .030 and .025) and see how that works for you. Let us know what happens.

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Originally posted by SnakeIs
Really......Hmmmmm now that poses a whole new scenario for me! Hopefully its something that simple :) I'll drop the plug gaps tonight and see what I get.

I haven't messed with the puter yet, as I don't really wanna "fix it if it aint broken"..... I will eventually get that done though so I don't have any problems down the road.. I'll keep you guys updated!

Dan- are you hitting MD's street night on the 19th of this month? If mine is tuned I should be there.

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Well I hope it is something as simple as that, I am willing to bet that dropping the gap should help to a degree, but I still believe there is an underlying problem w/ the car.
I would love to hit mason dixons street night on the 19th, however I think I need to pull the heads off the car and change the head gaskets. I need to go out and buy a manual to help me along since I've never changed a set of head gaskets before. ( this should be interesting ) IF my one friend comes up and helps me get it done, I might have a shot at racing soon, but I doubt that he's gonna show.

later
Dan

Ok, sorry for the terrible description guys....It is a standard Pro M 75mm bullet that is cal'd for 42# injectors. It is not cal'd for SC or blow-thru, but I am using it as a blow thru with the procharger. I know I should probably get the correct blow thru meter but this one has always worked before.

I went home yesterday and got the widenband in and began tuning all evening...I got the AFR up to a safe 11.0-11.5 at WOT and it is cruising at about 14.6-14.9 (a lil lean I think) This made the car run much better! (imagine that!) but it was still hitting a wall at 4k.... I took the plugs out as you guys suggested and dropped them from .035 to .025 and VIOLA! it now pulls to redline! :) :) :)

I still have some driveability and cruising issues I want to straighten out as those 42's are some big injectors!, but it at least pulls up in full boost now! Thanks so much Dan and Don (Paluka and WA2FAST) for the suggestions and ideas! I think I can get some power outta this thing now....

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Originally posted by SnakeIs
Ok, sorry for the terrible description guys....It is a standard Pro M 75mm bullet that is cal'd for 42# injectors. It is not cal'd for SC or blow-thru, but I am using it as a blow thru with the procharger. I know I should probably get the correct blow thru meter but this one has always worked before.

I went home yesterday and got the widenband in and began tuning all evening...I got the AFR up to a safe 11.0-11.5 at WOT and it is cruising at about 14.6-14.9 (a lil lean I think) This made the car run much better! (imagine that!) but it was still hitting a wall at 4k.... I took the plugs out as you guys suggested and dropped them from .035 to .025 and VIOLA! it now pulls to redline! :) :) :)

I still have some driveability and cruising issues I want to straighten out as those 42's are some big injectors!, but it at least pulls up in full boost now! Thanks so much Dan and Don (Paluka and WA2FAST) for the suggestions and ideas! I think I can get some power outta this thing now....

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Great to hear its running better. I would honestly still get that meter calibrated for blow through, because if its not your not gonna get the right readings to the EEC. ( I believe that pro-m's default is draw through ) 14.6-14.9 is kinda lean still for even crusing.
I really think that you shouldn't have any issues with 42's, to be honest they aren't as big as you think originally. When I strapped my car on the dyno at laroccas, he actually backed off the first pull because it was lean up top with 50's.
congrats and keep updated
DAN

That's great news that it's running better... good to hear. I figured that the spark gap would help out quite a bit and it's great that you finaly were able to get it to 11:1 a/f at WOT... the cruising a/f is lean... would concern me a bit, but at the same time, I would worry more about partial throttle accelleration than cruising. I think your problem now is that your meter isn't callibrated for a blow through application... I don't think you are going to be able to get away from their being a large variance between cruising a/f and wot a/f. The whole point behind Pro-M having their blow through meters running rich is to close that gap... if you had one, you would have to lean out the fuel tables across the board to get your a/f to 11:1 and in doing so, your cruising a/f would then be lower as well. If you are going to get a new meter (which I highly suggest... especialy because you are tunign the car yourself - a lot of work and time)... do yourself a favor and get the Univer... night and day difference, especially with ease of tuning. I know that I sound like a broken record when it comes to the Univer, but there is a reason for it.

Any numbers on the dyno yet? Bet they are WAY better than before...

Yes, I'm contemplating the new meter, but I think I'm going to have to go with the blow thru bullet, cause the budget just won't cut it for the univer, that thing is expensive! I have a perfect Pro M 77 cal'd for supercharger and and 42's but its the big draw thru type only, and I can't seem to sell it, thats what I was gonna use to buy my new meter.. know anyone that needs one? $175 and its yours.

With the tuner, I am able to richen all different points in the maf curve so I think I'm just going to fatten up the cruise and midrange some and see what that does. It has a really nice function called WOT_FUEL _MUlTIPLIER that I can use to richen or lean it out when its at WOT and in boost so it makes things pretty simple. But now I seem to have something crazy going on with the fuel tables....it will start up and run good for a few minutes and then it drops down to a 10.5afr and barely runs for about 30 seconds and slowly climbs back up to where I set it and then runs fine.... I have yet yo figure out whats doing this, but I'm working on it. Thanks again for the help guys!

Guys, just as an update I broke down an ordered the Pro M Univer MAF today... If you are interested or know someone that is I can get them way cheaper then anyone else can....Just let me know!

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Originally posted by SnakeIs
Guys, just as an update I broke down an ordered the Pro M Univer MAF today...

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Yea!!!:cool: :) :D

Ok, the new Univer goes on today (this afternoon I hope) as well as some new NGK V plugs and I will hook the wide band up and see what happens.... I will let you guys know. I think if this doesn't clear up the studder in midrange then I'm pulling the A9L out and putting the original computer back in, it never did this with the 95 EEC in there.......