How much is timing worth on blown cars?

I'm relatively new to the blower game (just got my Novi 1000 and car running right a couple of weeks ago) but I was wondering in general what is timing worth on blower cars? Is there a point in most combo where you can add timing and maybe still not get any detonation but not get any more power either?

I am currently running 17* total timing with the spout out with no detonation. From some of the posts I have been reading it sounds like I could probably take it up another 2-8 degrees depending. Would raising my timing be worth a "measurable" amount of HP or should I just leave it at 17* and play it safe?

I plan to hit the track ASAP with my M/T DR's as soon as the weather permits and I will probably play with my timing there to see if it makes a difference in ET or MPH but I figured I would go ahead and ask here and see what everyone has to say. Thanks for any info, Ryan

On a blower car timing is everything. Thats where all the power is made. I got away with 21* with 13#'s on my strim set up but I think its rare to be able to run that much on pump gas.

I would put some about a half tank of 110 in it and set the timing at 23-4* and have some fun.

Remember a half a tank of race gas is cheaper than a pair of head gaskets.

Race gas+timing=very big power gains but too much will squeeze gaskets..

But how about without race gas? I always run 93 octane and while I may later on this year add some 110 and up the timing just to see how low in the 11's I can go for now I'm just curious what a general "safe" timing is for ~10 lbs of boost and 93 octane. Thanks again for the info, Ryan

10psi, 93 Octane, Ported E7 heads and 24 degree of total timing. Your heads will be what makes the biggest difference on total timing. The more timing you can get away with the better the car runs on the bottom end to get those Drag Radials moving in a hurry.

Here's a good example. I was running 115-117 mph/24* total timing before I did the 8" crank pulley. After I never touched the timing and I went to 123-124mph. Thats alot of mph for 3 psi increase! I have no doubt that timing was 50% of my mph gain. I tried some 112 octane on the street and 28* with no spark knock and LOOK OUT!! It was a monster! ;)

Sounds like I will definately be playing with my timing! But as I said above, I may wait just for safety sake and b/c at this point I am still ellated at the power the car has now. :) I want to leave some room for improvement/fun down the road without swapping blower pullies. Thanks again for the info, Ryan

Timing can be worth big power both down low and up top.....a couple degrees cam easily make a 40rwhp difference.

Interesting thread, I have been wondering about this as well.

How can you run that much timing and boost and not ping? Spout out timing is at 8*, I push about 7psi on 91octance and ping like a motherfcuker anything past 3000rpm. Could it be winter gas? During the summer I treated the car like a red headed step child with no pinging.

I had my car on the dyno a few months ago. The car started at 16 degrees of total timming at 13#. Bob Kurgan added on degree and it responded with a 18rwhp gain. He added another degree and the car picked up another 20rwhp. We stoped there untill I do the Dart block upgrade.

So yes the dyno showed timing can make a big differance. With 93 octane and with 10+# of boost I wouldn't run more than 21 degrees of timing. Getting a good A/F ratio around 11.5 will help you a lot too.

Winter gas has different additives and has been known to cause issues.

Krwy,

We are talking total timing. If you run 8 initial that would make for 24* total timing.

Have you ever tried setting your timing up to like 20* initial and leaving the spout connector out?

The problem I have had with cars running the spout out and setting timing to 20 degrees for a example is that it is a total dog down low. Below 2500rpm I am running 34 degrees of timing and then start taking it out under higher boost numbers. The best money spent is on a PMS/InterceptorII that controls timing and fuel with boost.

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Originally Posted by Chuck

Krwy,

We are talking total timing. If you run 8 initial that would make for 24* total timing.

Have you ever tried setting your timing up to like 20* initial and leaving the spout connector out?

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How did you come up with 24* total from 8* initial? Does the spout add timing?

No I haven't. It was on my list of things to do soon. I adjusted the fuel pressure up to 41psi to see if it could cure the problem, it would still ping, but not till ~4500rpm. Soon as my tax return comes, MSD 6ALBTM and a Tweecer.

I dont know exactly how much timing the computer adds or when in the RPM band but it adds 16* somewhere at WOT so if you have the base timing (timing read on balancer when you have the spout out) then 8 + 16 gives you the 24*. But if you leave the spout out it locks your timing at whatever you set it at on the balancer. I was having issues with this too and even with a custom chip still had some pinging. But as I said in my first post I now have my spout out and the timing locked at 17* but plan to up it sometime soon. Hope that makes things a little clearer.

Speedytang is right, there will definatley be a loss in low end power locking the timing at 20*, But in some cases its the only cure for mid range pinging if you dont have money for a DFI or custom chip.

Also the EEC will add 16* more timing to what you have you initial timing set to at WOT. The EEC can add much more that that at light and medium load in the mid range.
This is what gives you the extra low end power.

Did someone say timing. :D I ran 32 degrees total with 110 race gas , TFS heads, 12psi S-trim. I ran with that for about 1 year :blob:


But I don't suggest anyone doing this :p

I've finally got mine to take 8* initial, was 6* for a while. I tired locking it out and it ran like crap.

I had a Tweecer and it was headache. I'm gonna get an Intercepter II and try my luck with it. Speedy, I've got one i'm bidding on right now. Still up for a lil tuning and thrashing this spring? There is alot of power in timing but you have to be careful not to get carried away. If you have a loud car you can't always hear slight pre-ignition so I run some 112 octane in the tank and let it rip when racing.

Here is the timimg the EEC uses at WOT. I hope this helps you.

BTW, Why not just buy a boost retard? You can find used ones for $150 if you look. That would solve your lazy bottom end with a locked out timing method.

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Originally Posted by 86merc

BTW, Why not just buy a boost retard? You can find used ones for $150 if you look. That would solve your lazy bottom end with a locked out timing method.

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The lazy bottom end is taken care of, by the 3.73's :teeth:

Boost retards that are on the market (Crane,MSD) are not accurate at all. If you can find a Ricer timing unit that is Digital Display that would be better but then your at the price of a PMS/Interceptor.
Brent how about May 29th at Norwalk. I will schedule that day for Play.

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Originally Posted by speedytang

Brent how about May 29th at Norwalk. I will schedule that day for Play.

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Sounds like a winner. thanks :D

I heard a few different answers from a few different people. I told a few people that I was going to up the timing to 20*, and leave the spout out. Imdiately they all shot down the idea. All saying without the spout, the cars runs like crap, and it controls a few things that use vacuum. So the spout does...?

From my understanding the spout does nothing but keep the computer from controling timing. And lets just put it this way, if it does happen to control more its nothing that is going to hurt your car. The worst that can happen is you pull it out, set the timing to wherever you want it, and it runs like crap. If you dont like it, for whatever reason, lower your timing back down and put the spout back in. Its at least worth a try in my opinion.

Pulling the spout helped me find a timing issue I was having. My car runs just fine at part throttle and idle. It does have a very slight hesitation at part throttle when its cold but it may have the issue even with the spout in. Now I will say some of my running OK probably has to do with the fact that my custom SCT chip still controls the A/F (which we have locked at ~11.4) so the car doesnt run pig rich, but I did run the car for a while with the chip out and the spout out and it still ran good.

Give it a shot, you wont hurt anything, and at least then you will know if your car runs better with it out or until you can get a tuning device.

Yeah, I'm definantely going to bump the timing up tonite to at least 18* and lock it there. I'm not worried about a custom chip right now, maybe just a MSD BTM, but I'm going to be putting together a 306 within the next 8 months.

Well since you're gonna do a motor swap soon, if you go to the track put how ever much 110-116 octane in(you can mix with pump gas but i try to run it down first) And try locking the timing @ 24-28 and HOLD ON! Again since you're gonna build a new motor. :teeth: Shouldn't hurt anything though i'd take it slow at first,

"The Hawk - Timing can be worth big power both down low and up top.....a couple degrees cam easily make a 40rwhp difference."



That's awesome news if that's true.....we had to knock off 3 degrees of total timing because of a oil leak (blown bearing in 1k head unit).....hello 500rwhp! :teeth:

Krwy,

If you are going with a tweecer then you won't need the retard box, you can setup the WOT ignition curve to retard inside the eec. Or you could use the BTM to control boost-referenced retard and just use the tweecer for fueling changes. But a good strong ignition amp is always a good idea on a boosted engine - I like my Crane HI6 but the MSD is very popular as well.

Notch, the spout plug OUT disconnects eec control from timing, it defaults to 10 degrees or wherever you set it to on the balancer. With the spout plug IN the eec takes over timing control. Any time the throttle goes wide open, 2.71v + [base tps V], the A9L-type eec goes into WOT mode and follows a preset timing curve which is as follows:
WOT_ADVANCE_VS_RPM # WOT spark Advance vs RPM
( 16383.8, 26 ) ( 5000, 26 ) ( 3500, 22 )
( 2600, 22.5 ) ( 2150, 21.5 ) ( 1800, 18.5 )
( 1000, 8 ) ( 0, 8 ) ( 0, 8 )

It interpolates the inbetween values, so the WOT timing ramps up from 22 at 3500 to 26 at 5000 in the oem application.

The SN95 cars are more complex, they don't have the same simple WOT mode, they mix and match timing numbers from 3 different load tables, and it gets sticky with BIG MAF and injectors because those throw a monkey wrench into the load calculation. One of the best things the tweecer etc do is readjust the load tables to more accurate numbers. Most of the eec tuning people diable at least one of these tables or else they set all 3 to be equal values.

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Originally Posted by Krwy

Yeah, I'm definantely going to bump the timing up tonite to at least 18* and lock it there. I'm not worried about a custom chip right now, maybe just a MSD BTM, but I'm going to be putting together a 306 within the next 8 months.

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If you go with a BTM you can lock your timing at 30-32 and have it pull out
1 degree per pound of boost so that it runs good on the bottom end but drops timing to 20-22 at 10 psi. Make sure you have a good strong manifold vacuum/boost reference, don't go thru the vac tree for the BTM signal!

edit: if you lock it at 18-20 it will do alright at WOT, but you will get lousy gas mileage, and may even do damage to catcons if you still have them on there. When running EGR at cruise rpm, the eec can dial up to almost 50 degrees advance! (this is why near-stock Mustangs can make 24-26 mpg on the highway).