Dyno Day results: "Your car has big problems"... HELP

**WA2FAST** · 06-25-2003, 12:01 PM

Well, I spoke to the tech on the phone (not Jim) and he said to check the voltage between C&D on the meter and see what it reads at idle. He said that acceptable is between .6 and .9, optimal is .7-.8 volts. Mine is .200 - .260. Obviously that explains some of my issues, the callibration is whack for idle at least. As I drove the car, when it started to miss and buck and cut out, the MAF voltage *seemed* to be okay, it seemed linear with airflow, maybe way out of range for what it was doing, but it seemed to be registering as airflow increased, but as soon as my car does the stupid stuff, the A/F gauge immediately drops off of the lean end, FAST, like there is NO fuel at all. Interesting because walsh said it was going pig rich (8:1) at part throttle, but my O2's (granted they are bosh factory replacements, and the a/f gauge doesn't do anything but dance around) are reading that it is falling off of the lean end like you would not beleive. I don't know what to think. The meter feels like it may have a leak in it, somewhat of a noticible one, and that is definitely NO good... the welds on it are nasty and look burnt through in a couple of spots. I do know for a fact that the callibration is off... but unfortunately blownwindsor's C&L has a 4" inlet on it, so I can't hook it up... I spoke with him on the phone last night and I am going to stop by later today sometime and he is going to let me try the Pro-M out instead (THANK YOU VERY MUCH Anthony!). I guess it is just a giant guessing game till then. It is all pointing to the meter (I am almost 100%) because the voltage is way too low at idle, and if the meter is un-plugged, the car does none of this. It's just strange how when I was watching the meter's voltage when the car was freaking out how it looked like it was staying linear to airflow, but maybe the car is going into a different fuel table right then and the meter is sending it bad readings for it to know what is going on. Also if I put my foot into it a bit more (to kill the vacuum on the boost gauge), the car all of a sudden works fine and quits freaking out... who knows. I am going to check my TPS and throw that other meter on it to see what happens. I am so tired of this. Thanks for the help though guys, you are all a very big help. Too bad I am missing out on all of the usual car festivities in this season of BEAUTIFUL weather.

**John91coupe** · 06-25-2003, 12:59 PM

A bit more info on mass air meter voltage for you. If it is lean at idle it is most probably lean up top. Even though the voltage is moving in a linear fashion it is probably following a lean curve. This is why there are 2 potentiometers on the Pro-M Calibrator. Moving one voltage up or down, say the idle voltage, will move the whole curve, including WOT, in the same direction. So whenever a change is made to one Pot there needs to be adjustment made to the other. This is also why the mass air adjustment device from Interactive is not such a good tool, it only has the the idle voltage Pot.

With your idle voltage that low I have no doubt that your meter is the root cause of your problems. Did they send you the flow sheet with the meter like they are supposed to do? If so, what is the voltage value for FLO PT. 8 in the ACT VOLTS column?

**WA2FAST** · 06-25-2003, 01:40 PM

If that picture doesn't show up, then go to my site (http://wa2fast.corral.net) and go to the bottom of the Photo Page 3... it's there.

Funny story about my meter... originally I bought the meter SPECIFFICALY for an 87' Mustang GT with their Pro-M MAF conversion harness pigtail and an A9L computer. I watched the lady write my specifications down on the actual order form (again, I am local, I went right up to the Pro-M factory and ordered it... but of course Jim wasn't available then, so she had to take my order). 2 weeks or so later, they called and the meter was ready... I happily picked my bran new (EXPENSIVE) 3.5" Univer #42 Blow Through up from them... took it home, went to plug it in, realized that it had the EEC-V plug on it (rectangle, not oval like mine)... no problem, annoying, but people make mistakes. I went back up there DURRING BUSINESS HOURS and had to beat on the window practically right in someone’s face (on the other side of the window) as they pretended NOT to hear me because the door was locked as if they were closed. The guy (obviously an engineer) FINALY acknowledged my existence and met me at the door... I explained him the problem, he could BARELY speak English, but whatever, I wrote down EXACTLY (and even drew a picture of the two plug styles just to make sure they got it right) just to be sure what the deal was and stuck it in the meter and he took it back and told me that it should be done sometime in the next couple of days. The next day, I picked up the meter and the new flow sheet (pictured above, or on my site) which is different than the first one.

Well, when I explained this to Walsh (what happened with the plug and the meter electronics change and everything) he got a smirk on his face and was like "how much do you want to bet that they just slapped on the electronics from a different one and gave you the flow sheet for that one and didn't actually flow/calibrate your meter with those electronics on it?" As soon as he started to say it, I was thinking the exact thing... why else would I get a call at 9am (very shortly after they open) saying that it's done when I KNOW they didn't touch it that night (soon before they closed).

Things that make you go Hmmmmm...

We'll see what Anthony's meter does. I KNOW that this one will fit my tubing :p

I'm starting to get a sense of humor with this whole situation... the Chevy people around me are lovin' the fact that my Ford isn't working, none the less that it's a Mustang (Chevy driver's most hated car).

I know that the callibration is completely out of whack, but would that explain why it freaks out at part throttle too?

**John91coupe** · 06-25-2003, 01:55 PM

Ahhh yes, the plot thickens! Sounds like Walsh (and you simultaneously) have hit on what is going on. That place has never been that quick in their entire history. As if someone worked overtime that night to do the recalibration on your meter? I seroiusly doubt that! Well, the flow voltage looks right but who knows what meter it is for.

All of this makes me feel real good about not having a mass air meter anymore. Maybe something to start to consider for yourself as well.

Anyway, good luck and keep us posted on the coming events.

John

**WA2FAST** · 06-25-2003, 01:59 PM

Yea, but what do I do instead of my current setup? What options do I honestly have for my car other than the MAF system (that are not going to put my wallet in a world of hurt)?

**John91coupe** · 06-25-2003, 03:26 PM

I know in my case that hindsight was definitely 20/20 because when I added up all of the meters I have had and all of the transactions with shipping meters back for re-recalibration plus the cost of my old Crane Interceptor II and or custom chips and dyno time...whew, I could have purchased 2 FAST systems. No kidding! I partially paid for my FAST setup by selling the Interceptor and meters. I understand about the money part though but it might be something to think about.

**WA2FAST** · 06-26-2003, 07:29 AM

Do they have a site or anything like that where I may be able to get some more information?

BTW, the meter makes my car run different, but not too much better. The voltage seems to be at least a little closer to the acceptable range, but the car still does strange things. It blows my mind that it does not do this without the meter and I am finding that no matter what meter I am running, it still does it. It is like the injectors just turn off. I know Walsh said that my car was going pig rich, but it totally feels like the factory rev limiter fuel cut off if you remember what that is like... it feels EXACTLY like that, and the A/F gauge immediately goes lean as hell and falls off of the scale. As soon as I take my foot off of the gas or whatever, it comes back to normal, doesn't stall or anything. Free-revving, it doesn't always do it, it is sometimes hard to get it to do it, but driving... forget it, just as soon as I get the clutch out all of the way to start moving, it literally falls on it's face and feels like it's pulling ALL fuel out for some reason. I don't get it. What the hell could be wrong with my car? The meter is DEFINITELY part of the problem, that is my lean idle and lean WOT without a doubt, but not my part throttle issues... is there a sensor or something that could be doing this?

I ran codes, came up with the usual emissions BS... thermactor air system 1 and 2 inoperative, egr vacuum control solenoid failure, charcoal canister purge valve failure (none of those things are on the car anymore), it said that it could not control the idle speed, egr flow was low, drivers side O2 indicated a lean condition (during the test, the a/f gauge went off of the scale lean the entire time... the gauge is hooked up to the drivers side O2) and I think that is it... I will see if I have the sheet of paper with me in a couple of minutes with the exact KOEO and KOER codes. Anyway, I checked the TPS voltage thinking that maybe it had a blip in it... nope, that's fine too.

I remember after I swapped my motor mounts and headers at the end of last season, the car doing some weird things right afterwards... I also remember not liking how the intake looked like it was kind of pinning the harness in-between it and the firewall when the motor was lifted up to swap the headers and mounts. A short time afterwards the car started doing some strange things, but then I stored it for the winter. My problems were not like this though, so maybe that was a start or something? I just don't understand why when the meter isn't plugged in, it doesn't have the part throttle problem.

Any ideas before you guys hear an A-bomb go off in my garage? I am honestly at wits end with all of this, man am I ever running out of steam here.

I still have to deal with Pro-M any my meter issues, cause .2v is way out of range without a doubt, so the whole Pro-M thing doesn't change a bit... lean idle, lean WOT, but my part throttle issue is now a concern because it seems somewhat un-related. Oh yea, the welds on my Univer look like they went through hell and back compared to Anthony's... the guy who welded the sample tube on mine may have been drunk at the time. I'll see if I can take some pics of it today after I get home... it's rather scary to say the least.

**John91coupe** · 06-26-2003, 08:14 AM

Well, this is a longshot but how are the ground connections on the motor? You should have the orange wire from the harness going to the back of the drivers side head and also a braided ground wire that goes from the firewall to the same spot on the head as the orange wire. I'm pretty sure the orange wire is a computer ground. Any chance you have a short or bad connection in that harness somewhere? Dunno, just throwing out some ideas.

**WA2FAST** · 06-26-2003, 08:41 AM

You are right. The orange wire goes to the back of the cyl. head on the drivers side along with the braided ground strap from the firewall right there. That is the HEGO ground (for some reason it's on the main harness and not the O2 harness), but that is a VERY crucial ground indeed... the block's factory 4awg ground cable goes to the frame up front instead of the battery (as it was from the factory) and that is the common ground point that I was talking about before that I have the main computer ground going to. That is where I ran the 8awg ground cable from the battery directly as well. So on that ground point, I have the 4awg block ground cable, the main computer ground (10awg wire that used to go directly to the battery), and the 8awg wire that is run directly from the battery... so I don't think that my grounding is an issue anymore honestly. Also my O2's seem to be running just great (first time in a long time)... gauge is reading (which means that the voltage is good), the computer is making the appropriate changes and everything. I don't know. I was thinking the same thing, but again when the car is on just the O2's it seems to run it's best.

I have the original harness that is on the car that has been converted to MAF spec via Pro-M's pinout directions along with their pigtail for the meter and the VSS line inserts and all of that. I also have a harness out of a 93'GT with injector harness and all. I am a bit afraid to install this though, as there are things on this harness that mine doesn't have. Naturally it is different, I realize that, so the airbag sensors don't scare me too much, it's the fuel pump relay mainly. Mine happens to be under my driver’s seat... the 93 harness has it on the harness! Will the car still work? I don't know, it's hard to tell... that's a TON of work to find out that it isn't going to work, but then again, look at what I am up against. I think my next step is going to be a compression test just for good measure, and then I'm going to yank the upper and pull that main harness out and inspect it wire for wire.

I unfortunately don't have a proper pinout for it, all I have to go off of is tmoss' diagram for the "88 to 91" harness... from what it looks like to me, it is identical to the 93' I have, and pinout wise it is the same as my converted 87', but the picture "roadmap" that I have as I call it... (a nice actual picture of the full harness with each plug labeled) looks different from my 87' which is what scares me.

Do you think some of these problems could possibly have anything to do with either the engine temp gauge or the air charge temp sensor? The computer didn't report any problems or codes for them, but then again, my car is one of the worlds great wonders right now too.

BTW, I found F.A.S.T.'s website... looks awesome, how much did you pay, and which kit did you get? I know that it is no answer to my problems right now, but definitely something to look into for a future project because you are totally right with the money spent in this crap.

**John91coupe** · 06-26-2003, 09:18 AM

Oh yeah, sorry I forgot to give you the FAST website. I paid $2200 for mine at the time but I believe I have seen them advertised for around $2000 now. I know that sounds like a lot at first but it is a very complete system and some of the cost could be offset by selling your MA and PMS. My system is the Bank to Bank with wide band O2 option. You would also need a laptop to do tuning and data logging.

Actually, this could be the answer to your problems right now if there is a glitch in your harness. The FAST system comes with a complete new harness and all sensors. Only drawback is that if you remove your factory harness completely, like I did, you will not have some of your factory gauges. Not a big loss in my mind since I have Autometer gauges to cover everything needed anyway and the factory stuff just isn't very accurate.

I'll tell you, I really love the FAST system and how easy it is to use as it turns out. The data logging function is incredible for tuning and trouble shooting problems. It has already shown me that early on I had a miss in my ignition system. Cured that problem with some new plug wires, cap & rotor and tightened the plug gap. This was some of the best 2 grand I have spent, that's for sure.

That wide band also saved my butt once when one of my pumps went out on me. The remaining single A1000 was struggling to keep up with flow demand so the computer kept raising the duty cycle on the injectors all the way up to 100% to maintain my set A/F ratio. Normally I'm at 82-85% duty cycle on the 83 pounders.

Listen to me....I'm sounding like a salesman for FAST.

Anyway, from your description of the problem it sounds more like a short or bad connection somewhere and not so much a bad sensor.

**blownwindsor** · 06-26-2003, 10:56 AM

so how did the car ruu when you put the other meter on.

**WA2FAST** · 06-26-2003, 11:19 AM

Hey Anthony... the meter made my car run different, but not too much better. I never tried to drive it because I could free-rev it and get the same problems. Your meter's voltage is a little bit better than mine (in the .350-.450 range at idle) but still not right... that would explain why your car won't idle without the chip... funny how mine won't either though! It took about a minute and a half before my car would idle by itself with your meter on it... that's funny because my meter is more out of whack at idle than yours and my car idles just fine with my meter in it. Whatever... anyway, thank you again very much, I will get that meter back to you later today.

I guess I just have a compilation of problems here... the meter is DEFINITELY not callibrated right (even though the flow sheet says so), and that explains idle A/F and WOT A/F, but the part throttle is something entirely different... but possibly somewhat related. I don't know, like I said above, next course of action is compression test for good measure, then the main harness is coming out and I'm going to disect it and test EVERY wire in it. Hopefully it's obvious as to what's goin on, but I am not counting on it.

**blownwindsor** · 06-26-2003, 01:02 PM

maybe I could hoke my c/l and test it and see how it works voltage wise. because my car will run with no chip and the c/l but not the pro m

**WA2FAST** · 07-02-2003, 08:37 AM

Well, I am going to finish compression testing later today, so far things look just fine, all within 5 or so of each other right around 150-155 which is what I expected anyway. Once I am done and assuming no low readings (otherwise I will be doing a hot compression test), I will be yanking out my wiring harness and either possibly looking for any problems / testing it and repairing it or just simply installing the 93' harness that I have and giving that one a shot. It can't be much else. This problem started last year after the header/motor mount change, and I am willing to bet that my wiring harness got damaged from how high the motor was jacked up and possibly smashed against the firewall... we'll see. The meter still needs to go back to Pro-M as the voltage is way out of range, but I am still in dispute with them about that one.

In case you guys are interested, I took a bunch of pictures of Anthony's 3" Univer vs. my 3.5" Univer. I will post a few on here just so you can see. Note that his welds are 10-fold better than mine (thanx Pro-M).

This first picture, you can see the sampling difference between the 3" and the 3.5" clearly... the 3" simply uses restriction for air to be forced through the passages because of the size reduction. The 3.5" does the same thing, but "cuts" the air to sample it too... the sample holes are between the outer lip and the inner lip on the inlet side... I believe this is to sort of force the air to be sampled at low volumes (idle).

Here are 3 pictures that show the size proportion differences along with the weld quality differences around the sampling tube apparatus

Here are a couple more of my meter up close to show welding.

Anthony (blownwindsor), sorry for not talking to you before putting pic's of your meter up, let me know if you would like me to take them down.